Feed Drop! Infodumpies - Eternal Blue of the Spotless Goo: The History of Hacking

Violet and Brianne made another show (non-fiction this time)! Infodumpies celebrates the autistic and ADHD skill of infodumping, following topics close to Brianne and Violet's hearts, and featuring occasional autistic and ADHD guests. Enjoy a sampling of Infodumpies, and make sure you subscribe to the show on your podcathcer of choice!
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Violet takes a dump!

Expert 90's hacker babe, Violet, teaches Brianne that hacking wasn't invented when the movie Hackers came out. Going far beyond Matthew Lillard's ouvre, Violet teaches us about phone phreaking, how the movie War Games changed federal law, ransomware, wtf "Eternal Blue" is, and giant bitcoins.

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Intro and Outro music is "Grackna's Groove", by Sean Turner 

Transcript

Eternal Blue of the Spotless Goo: History of Hacking 

Brianne: [00:00:00] I'm Brianne, my pronouns are she, her, I'm autistic, and I have ADHD, and I hacked the planet, and now my tummy hurt real 

Violet: bad. Hi, I'm Violet, I have ADHD, my pronouns are she, her, and I'm up in your internet crawling around like a little cyber 

Brianne: rat. A little cyber rat. Cyber rat sounds cute. I want a cyber 

Violet: rat.

A cyber rat would be real great. Like a little internet helper friend who goes and finds files for you that's a little rad. 

Brianne: That's what happens, right? So, for Yes. For everyone's understanding, Violet, very good at computer. Me... I think the [00:01:00] idea... No, she's very good at computer. Literally, literally the other night, I was like, what are you up to?

And she's like, oh, I just made a little video game. I just made a video game. It's like a flappy bird knockoff with one of our dogs and he like flies and farts to get higher. And anyway, yeah, it was just a couple, it was just a couple hours. She had made a little video game. So, Violet good at, Violet good at computer.

Computer. I'm alright at computer. Violet good at computer. I'm, I'm not arguing with her about it. Violet good at computer. I use computer to talk to nerd. Look at, look at booba sometimes. Watch funny dog video and I am now enjoying the thought of, whenever I look for a file in my finder window, of a little cyber rat going to go grab it for me.

Hell yeah. So that's where, that's where we're at with our computer knowledge. 

Violet: Yep. Got it, yeah. And she, as you [00:02:00] can tell, Brianne has a very thorough understanding of the complex depths of the internet. It's all a bunch of rats. It's rats all the way down, finding the files and bringing them to us. And 

Brianne: cute rat videos.

Violet: And cute rat videos, right. So, what we're going to talk about today, though, is what happens when someone else's rat goes and gets your files illegally. Not, not allowedly. Illicitly, even. Like a bad rat? Like a bad rat. In this case, that would be a hack. So, hacking is what we're talking about today. More specifically, a specific exploit in Windows.

Windows being the biggest operating system that there currently is. Most people use Windows. I'm not gonna get into arguments about what's better, you know, Mac or Windows or Linux or any 

Brianne: of that. I got two Windows in this room right now. 

Violet: Yeah, you got two windows, and they're great, and you also have an apple on your [00:03:00] desk that you can't eat, and it's still perfectly usable.

It has its own, every, every operating system has its uses. I'm just going to say that right now. We're not getting into the debate of what operating system is better. That's not what this is about. This is about hacking. What is hacking, right? It's not actually rats, alright? I hate to break it to you, it's not actually 

Brianne: rats.

It is Angelina Jolie and Johnny Lee Miller and Matthew Lillard, and they are, they are hooked up to phones at Grand Central 

Violet: Station. That is a type of freaking. That is phone freaking. Yeah, freaking. 

Brianne: In a sense. I used to phone, I used to phone freak a lot. Professionally? No, just long distance stuff, you know.

Like, oh. Yeah, that's fair. What are you wearing? I'm the phone freak. 

Violet: Oh. You look good, baby. Wait, no, there's a phone. How can I see you? Oh no! But real, for real, what is a hack? A hack, the term is it, it has its roots in [00:04:00] Middle English, the word hacken, or H A K K E N, I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that right, I don't know Middle English.

Hey, linguistics babe, am I pronouncing that right? Middle English hacken? 

Brianne: Fuck if I know, I don't know, it's not an IPA. I think? I don't know Middle 

Violet: English. Brianna's good at words in the way that I'm good at computers, and so I don't know what she knows. Anyway, the Middle English word hackin which means to cut with chopping blows, specifically.

So if you're hacking away at something, right? Nowadays, it refers to an attempt to gain illicit and more commonly used. And the whole, like, definition of that and what it means nowadays and all of that I, I found a lot of more detailed information about its origins in an interesting article in the Journalful Journal of Applied Journalism and Media Studies.

I have a link to it in the, the show notes that we're gonna have, [00:05:00] as well as a bunch of other stuff I'm gonna have links to where I'm getting my sources for these 

Brianne: things. For the Patreon, yeah, if you join our Patreon, you get... ours, or our guests comprehensive notes for what they have taken for the episode.

We'll include some main things in the show details, but go support us on Patreon. You get all of our nice, nice notes. 

Violet: Yeah. So talking about hacking, right? We know what hacking is in definition, scanning a list and access to a computer system, right? Now early hacks, we're talking about stuff like phone systems, right?

Because I, some of you, I don't know how old our audience is necessarily, but some of y'all may remember the phone and internet being interlinked. At a certain point in internet history. I got 

Brianne: in really big trouble once because I used our dial up internet and ran up like a 350 phone bill because I was using our dial up to talk to people on Star Trek and Stargate forums.

Violet: That is really [00:06:00] cool and not That's Not nerdy 

Brianne: at all. That alone should have answered everything they needed to know for my autism assessment. Yeah. That's fair. Yeah. But anyway. Yeah. Dial up internet is wild, because it's like, stop talking online, our phone bill's too high. 

Violet: Yeah, it's, it was a wild time, right?

So it just before we got to that point of dial up internet, right? Dial up being you dial through the phone line to access your, your internet. There was a period where, you know, there were pay phones everywhere. Yes, y'all kids might remember pay phones. It's, it's a phone out in the middle of somewhere you put a coin in or a couple of coins, you call somebody.

In some cases you can also call collect where you call and then the person that picks up has to pay. So, what developed from that whole system of automated kind of phone teller stuff once that stopped being like a literal, like, switchboard, you know, and, and it was being handled by a computer or, or mechanism of some kind, right?

Once it started getting handled [00:07:00] by a computer you had people figuring out how that worked and replicating that, the, the commands into the phone. manually, right? The only 

Brianne: reason I know about this is the movie hackers. 

Violet: Yeah, a lot of honestly, movies has a lot to do with why hacking is what it is today.

And we're going to get into that later. But like the reason people Like, the reason hacking is illegal gets into different movies and stuff. It's going to be, yeah, we'll, we'll talk about it. So basically in early payphone days, the way a phone works, right, is that you would press tones on the, you would press the numbers on the keypad and it, each number would generate a specific tone that would tell the computer on the inside of the other side of the line, what number you were dialing, right?

And then if you put a quarter in, it would put another tone. Specifically to tell the computer that you had put a quarter in. There would be there's all kinds [00:08:00] of tones for all kinds of different things like long distance calls, and calling collect and stuff like that. 

Brianne: What does this tone? What does this tone do?

Violet: I that might be like the number seven. I honestly don't know good excellent. I'm not a phone 

Brianne: freak. You are a phone freak I was thinking yeah Good job 

Violet: Thank you. Thank you. I guess I am a phone freak. Although not as famous as the most famous phone freak. There's one person, John Draper. He is also known as Captain Crunch or Crunch Man.

I'm sorry? 

Brianne: John Draper? 

Violet: John Draper is a famous phone 

Brianne: freak. Okay, in my, in my headcanon Don Draper is real and this is Don Draper's, this is Don Draper's son. 

Violet: Which he, which Although I think So, John Draper was born in 1943, and I think Donald Draper would have been like Too 

Brianne: young. Too young. Yeah. Too young.

Okay, this is, this is, this is Don Draper's cousin. Sure. [00:09:00] Sure. Yes, John Draper. 

Violet: Yeah. So, John Draper was a computer programmer and he was also a phone freaker. He was one of the people that figured out a number of ways and devices. And we should, 

Brianne: we should be clear, the phone freaker has a PH in front of both, and it's not like he was a freaky, not like he was a freaky little man on the phone.

I mean, he might have been. He might have been. We don't know that. He might have been. It's not F R E A K. It's P Arch. P Arch. P Arch. Yeah. P H R E A K. Yeah. It's 

Violet: like Phat slang. Like P H A T, Phat. But Freak. Right? Same era. Honestly. They probably have a similar origin. But. John Draper, aka Captain Crunch, the reason he is called Captain Crunch is because he's a widely known figure within the computer programming world and hacker world because he kind of figured out that the, at the time, if you ordered, or if you ordered, if you bought a box of Captain Crunch, some of them would come with a boat swains [00:10:00] whistle, right?

And so you would blow it and it would make two tones, like a, you know, I can't make two tones. 

Brianne: Yeah. Yeah. I just, I, yeah. I've, obviously I'm hearing the Boatswain's Whistle from Star Trek. 

Violet: Yeah, exactly. This one in particular, it had two, it was like a regular whistle, but it had two slots, and it would generate two tones to make like a small chord of the two tones.

So, so like a regular whistle, right, it has, you blow a new part and it has two holes that come out of it, or divert the air to make the tone, right? And this one has two holes to make two tones. With, you blow into one hole, make two tones, so it makes like a little chord. If John Draper figured out if you covered up one of those holes, the tone that the other hole would make was the same frequency as the tone the computer needed to, or the computer on the phone needed to represent that you had, had put money into it, essentially.

Oh, so he found, 

Brianne: not only did he find a tone that matched up with the phone tone [00:11:00] system, he found the most useful 

Violet: one. Yes, yes. He, he found that the whistle, if you covered up one of the holes, it would make a 2,600 hertz frequency tone, her Hertz F 2,600 hertz tone which is the same frequency that at and t long lines used to indicate that something called a trunk line was available for a new routing call.

So it. Long story short, it basically just auto connected to where you needed to connect and nowadays those whistles are considered, like souvenirs and collectibles and stuff and it's, it's, I would love to have one at some point. It's really cool. It literally looks like a little smoking pipe and it has like a whistle on it and it says Cap'n Crunch.

Noted for future birthdays. But anyway, so that's phone phreaking, right? Just to give you one example of phone phreaking, there's other ways, not going to spend too much time on it, but that's phone phreaking, another early type of hacking. Yeah, I'm 

Brianne: a phone phreak. I'm a phone phreak with the F. 

Violet: Yes, exactly.

I'm a [00:12:00] phone phreak with Fs on both words. So figure that out, right? So now, nowadays, right? Computers are more advanced. We don't need to use up the phone line to connect to the internet. We have mainline internet connections into our houses that are dedicated lines. We don't have to do that, right? But hacking is definitely still a thing, right?

Early on, once computers started to become more and more advanced, you started to have Like people accessing computers that they weren't supposed to access. And I, I won't get too much into the history, like the origin of the internet and all that, and this is specifically about hacks and hacking.

But we're going to fast forward a little ways here to like crypto and Bitcoin, right? Crypto and Bitcoin have become a huge part. of cybercrime, because hacking, hacking has always been a thing since computers have been around, right? Shortly after the first computers were developed at labs, I believe at MIT there were people in that interconnected [00:13:00] small, like proto internet that were trying to access other computers illicitly, and we're doing so, right?

That's so 

Brianne: funny, because it's like, you show up to the staff meeting, and it's like, there are only five of us. I think it was you, Janet. Who the fuck hacked it? It was one of 

Violet: us. Who did it? There are twelve computers on all of the internet. Who did it? Yeah. It's one of you. Seriously. And it was literally like that at some point.

And, and, it wasn't even illegal back then. There was no laws about it. It was wild. Right? Who 

Brianne: stole my sensual drawings of Rita Hayworth? 

Violet: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Exactly. So, speaking about laws and illegality, I suspect, before getting to crypto, we should get to... When did it become illegal for crypto to, er, not crypto, for hacking?

When did hacking become illegal? The primary U. S. criminal law involving hacking is the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, a. k. a. the CFAA which may have been enacted partially in response to a movie. [00:14:00] Do you remember, I, I've already told Brianne this, but do you remember what movie? It was War Games, right?

Wargames, yes, a 1983 Cold War themed movie about hackers. And if you haven't seen it, it's honestly, it's a good movie. It, it's 

Brianne: a little silly. It stars Matthew Brodick. Alleged vehicular manslaughterer. 

Violet: Yeah, alleged vehicular manslaughter of Matthew Broderick. It is a good movie, it has a lot of things that nowadays seem kind of silly, about people going like, Whoa, computers can do that?

And it's like, obvious nowadays, you know? Yeah, but 

Brianne: those are, those are an entire genre of movie that, as someone who knows nothing about computers, I enjoy, and as someone who knows a lot about computers, you also enjoy. 

Violet: Yeah, yeah. It's just good. It's just good, honestly. But yeah, so, the CFAA, like, most people...

The Cummy Fart Ass Ass, the CFAA 

Brianne: most people Remind me what that really is again, because my brain just is saying Cummy Fart Ass Ass. I need to know what it actually 

Violet: is. The Computer Fraud [00:15:00] and Abuse Act. Okay, thank you. Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, right? A lot of people believe that it was enacted specifically in response to the movie War Games, and people realizing from this movie, because if you don't know, minor Well, spoiler 

Brianne: alert, Luke Morgan was It came out in the 80s, okay?

If you haven't seen it yet, we're spoiling, we're spoiling a 35 year old probably movie. 

Violet: Yeah, and I haven't seen it in a minute, so I might not be getting all the details right. But, it's a movie about a, a war simulation computer kind of going off the rails, and getting attached to the actual missile defense systems, and the Computer hacker Matthew Broderick is basically having to figure out, what can we tell it to get it to shut itself down?

Yeah, 

Brianne: I don't, I watched that movie as a kid and I do not recall it at all, so. 

Violet: Yeah, it's basically, it's called War Games because it's running a war simulator that accidentally gets, you know, over into reality and they can't turn it off and Matthew Broderick has to [00:16:00] basically tell it, you know, divide by zero and it shuts down, right?

So in a sense, he kind of hacks the computer, but anyway, so. The, the concept of major government organizations getting hacked by I think at the time like 17 year old kid in the movie or whatever, from his bedroom, that imagery, it lit a fire under a lot of people's butts to realize, oh my god, wow, computers can really do a lot of stuff and they have a lot of So, the CFAA was made.

It criminalized, specifically, exceeding authorized access to a protected computer system. Now, I don't know about you. That's pretty vague. Yeah. 

Brianne: Who's to, the, the saying protected part is really the vague part. Cause how do you classify, at what point is it super protected too? That's the vague part. That's 

Violet: exactly.

And the CFAA, because of that vague wording and because of kind of [00:17:00] the lack of knowledge of How computers even do amongst the government at the time, the CFAA has been unevenly applied and quite often criticized but it also still remains highly significant in kind of the field of cyber law, essentially in recent years, it has been updated some but there's also been many cases where it's like, the, the vagueness of this has been very obviouslyinated taken advantage of.

I can think of one case, I don't remember the specifics, but there was an individual who looked at some the, the source code on a website, right, you pull up a browser, look at the source code by pressing F12 and if you're in Google Chrome, right, that is not protected. You, anybody can do that. This person looked at the code in F12 and saw that this website was giving a bunch of people social security numbers out.

Oh, fun. That. Yeah, it was just a list of social security numbers that were not actually encrypted. There is like a minor step that one would have to do [00:18:00] to take the data from that format and put it into a readable format, but it wasn't strictly encrypted, right? Which it doesn't, the law doesn't say protected or encrypted.

It doesn't say encrypted. It says protected, which what does that mean? Right? Anyway, this person got sued by the government. This was a government website that had this flaw, by the way, naturally. And it was a, yeah, it was a reporter pointing this out. The, the government, the local government sued them for hacking under this law.

Brianne: They just pulled up, call an ambulance, but not for me. 

Violet: Yeah, exactly. When the reporter just reported it to them, doing 

Brianne: them solid, doing them, doing everyone involved a real solid like, thank you. Time to die. Literally. 

Violet: Yeah, absolutely. They literally reported it to them and then several months later they found it wasn't fixed and they were like, I, this needs to be done, something needs to be done about this.

So they tell their news, you know, they work at a news agency, 

Brianne: right? Yeah, let's, we should find an article, [00:19:00] we should find an article about that to post it in the show details, not just the Patreon, so folks can get 

Violet: the specifics. Absolutely, yeah. I will find, definitely find an article about that put that in the show notes.

Bye. Either way, that law got applied there and I don't know the resolution of it, but it was definitely a case where this person didn't do anything illegal and in fact they were doing a good deed, and this law was being unevenly applied against them. But that is the primary law that's used, and a lot of times it is, it is the law that people go to jail for when it comes to hacking.

Now, when it comes to hacking, right, let's say you are a hacker and you don't want to get caught. What is, you know, what, what is to stop other hackers from hacking you? Right? My 

Brianne: raw sex appeal. 

Violet: Yep. Exactly. That's it. That's all there is. That's why all hackers are sexy. I 

Brianne: just, that's why I just dress like I'm a hacker from a 90s movie even though I don't know how to do most things on computer.

Violet: That is super fair. So [00:20:00] really when it comes to. The internet nowadays, there's essentially a code of honor sort of amongst cyber criminals. And this is not universally agreed upon. There's different organizations that have different restrictions and things like that on things you can and can't do.

There are some organizations that are like, do whatever the fuck you want. Everything's fair game. If your OPSEC, your operational security is bad and somebody else hacks you, that's on you. But. A lot of the larger groups function and continue to function without infighting because they have internal rules of conduct.

The ones without 

Brianne: the rules, the ones without the rules sound like the internet equivalent of, well, if you didn't want to get hacked, you shouldn't have been wearing that outfit. Yeah, honestly. That's so shitty. 

Violet: Yeah. So I have a list here, and I'm gonna, this is gonna be in the show notes as well, a list of a real example of a set of rules that a, a cybercriminal platform Has [00:21:00] had their constituents adhere to and I'm just going to pick and choose a couple examples The first rule is members are not allowed to engage in threatening behavior towards other members This includes doxing which is basically finding someone's personal information such as their address Phone number, you know, social security number things like that and putting it out on the internet swatting which is where you Through a VPN or other sources, call the police and say, I'm going to go shoot up a school and I live at this address.

And then a SWAT team busts in that person's door, right? Because what else, what other information do they have, you know? And that sort of thing. All of that is not allowed. Don't attempt to infect members with Trojan's viruses or backdoors. No direct links to infected downloads and posts or profiles.

So if you have viruses, don't just link to them directly. You have to have them, like, secured in a file in layers, you know. Don't post [00:22:00] personal information that isn't yours. You cannot ask or offer reputation. So like, There's, there's like this concept of how well known a person is, how much they can be trusted, you know, and these people will work together based on how much reputation the other people have.

Brianne: Really enough. It's like a video game where you have to gain reputation before you can. 

Violet: Yeah, it is. It's weirdly gamified in some ways. Which 

Brianne: I guess for the, for hackers, it makes sense that it would be gamified into terms I understand from video games, like, you don't have enough reputation with these people to do that, you know what I mean?

Yeah. 

Violet: Yeah a few other rules that are interesting. No threads or posts for donation begging. This includes loan requests. 

Brianne: Oh damn, the hackers, the hackers aren't down with mutual aid. That's disappointing. 

Violet: I, I don't know about you, I wouldn't accept a loan from somebody who is a known hacker who steals money from people.

Which is just silly. There's a couple other rules here. Yeah, there's like 17 different rules but a lot of [00:23:00] them are just like, don't hack each other, which I think is really silly. So once you have this rule set in place of not hacking each other, then you can work together to hack other groups, right?

A lot of times these groups will have rules like, we don't hack healthcare organizations, we don't ha help hack childcare organizations you know, stuff like that. But From what I've been seeing and doing research for this episode, a lot of that A lot of that code of contact regarding sorry, code of conduct regarding who we are and are not allowed to hack has been kind of falling to the wayside.

And it's kind of like, we'll hack anybody who's available, basically, which is a little bit of a startling or kind of a scary thought to think that, you know, you could go to the hospital and while you're at the hospital, your data could get collected for use of insurance stuff at the hospital. And then that information.

Could get like hacked, the hospital could get hacked, and your information, your personal, like medical information could get hacked and stolen and sold on the dark web. So 

Brianne: [00:24:00] kind of, it's kind of crazy. I kind of, I, I, I feel like my pattern recognition is like capitalism has everything to do with why they're ignoring this now.

Right. Like, I kind of wonder if it's them saying these organizations themselves are corrupt now, even though they're meant to help people, and I'm kind of wondering if they're, not to excuse it, not to excuse it at all, but it's just me saying, like, yeah, I feel like that's to blame. I feel like that's why they maybe are overlooking that one.

Yeah, 

Violet: I think you're definitely right. And I think, like, just economical issues are pressing them to be a little bit more greedy than they would, you know? And speaking of greed crypto. What is crypto? Crypto is cryptocurrency. 

Brianne: Superman's dog. I have this one. 

Violet: Yes, crypto is Superman's dog. And also, it's a form of currency.

Cryptocurrency is used very often in hacking. Why you might ask? [00:25:00] Well, cryptocurrency is a, I'm not, listen. Preface. I'm not great with finance stuff. I'm gonna say some stuff here that I'm not 100% on what exactly it means, but bear with me. Crypto is a decentralized currency, which I think means that it's not, like, run by a government?

Yes. Right. Okay, cool. So, it's not run by a government. It's not run 

Brianne: there's not yeah, there's not one Government, yes, because that's how currencies are commonly run, but just decentralized means there's no one point of power for it. 

Violet: Yes, and also transfers of Cryptocurrencies can often be done with a lot of anonymity.

You don't necessarily have to have a bank account to withdraw crypto into physical centralized currency. Just because you, if you don't have a bank account or even like a social security number, ID, any of that, you could still, at least at some point in time, you could go to what's called a [00:26:00] crypto ATM or Bitcoin ATM and withdraw your currency into Bitcoin.

Like from cyber crypto into U. S. dollars or British pounds, whatever currency you're trying to get to, depending on where that ATM is. These ATMs are run by individuals who just take a little bit off the top when you withdraw some and they don't reveal to anyone who has taken that transaction, because why would they?

They don't need to. It's unregulated. It's unregulated, exactly. Or at least it has been up until very recently, things have started to get more regulated. You could also get in some cases like physical bitcoins or like a thing. Which is... What, really? Yeah, that's a thing. It's a literal physical coin that has a code on it which is the the specific code that The, whatever computer worked out that Bitcoin, that is the, the answer to that 

Brianne: crypto.

Okay, how big are they? Because y'all can't see her, but her hand is [00:27:00] pretty fuckin wide, like she's holding a fuckin doubloon. Are they really 

Violet: that big? It's like the diameter of a soda can. 

Brianne: Whoa, like my dick! 

Violet: Yeah, like, yes, much like her cock. But yeah, it's, it's a basically a big, like fake gold coin.

The real money is in either, a lot of times it'll be the code on the back, the hash on the back, or it'll have like an SD card with a crypto wallet stored on 

Brianne: it. With Pokemon Scarlet 

Violet: on it. Yeah. It'll have Pokemon Scarlet stored on the SD card as well as a crypto wallet. I 

Brianne: would wear my giant Bitcoin as a necklace.

Hell yeah, 

Violet: that would be, that would be a power move. Yeah. Yeah. Also, it might get you shot cause that's several thousand dollars now. 

Brianne: Oh, well, you know, around the house, 

Violet: around the house, around the house, but yeah, so up until fairly recently, crypto could be transferred. Requested, [00:28:00] withdrawn, all of this anonymously.

Nowadays, however, it's getting to be where most Bitcoin wallet apps on your phone computer programs require an ID by government law to withdraw from that, that app or what have you. There are still some cryptocurrencies that don't require this because they're based in other countries where those laws haven't been enacted.

It, it gets into some real gray areas that haven't really been accounted for in law. So there is one called, like, Monero which is one that is supposed to be entirely anonymous and secure but also there are rumors that maybe it's controlled by the Feds now and that if you try to do something illegal with it, the Feds will immediately know.

Because it's run by the Fed. So it's secure to everyone except the Feds. Oh, great. Well, those 

Brianne: are the people you don't want knowing the most. 

Violet: Yeah. Especially if you're doing illegal stuff. Yeah. But, before a lot of this law got passed, there [00:29:00] have been, er, laws were passed, rather. There have there were a lot of really big hacks that happened.

And yeah. You know, there are many companies, like big businesses, that got hacked using ransomware, right? And ransomware is a specific type of virus where someone locks all the files on your computers and says, you have to pay me 50 bitcoin if you want your files back, otherwise we'll take your files and release them all publicly on the internet.

Oh, my feet, my foot 

Brianne: picks. 

Violet: Yeah, well, your foot pics, your medical records, your, your bank information, your credit card information, who knows? Listen, 

Brianne: my body don't work and I don't got money, but my feet, my feet are mine. That's where the bank is. Yeah. 

Violet: Yeah. But yeah, ransomware is a really nefarious type of virus where someone will put ransomware on your computer.

It locks you out of your computer and it actually, like, Prevents either an individual or in some [00:30:00] cases an entire organization from accessing the files that needs to do its work. And there are a lot of different things that can happen at that point. Sometimes there'll be like a phone number that the person can call that's like untraceable where they can actually negotiate with the hackers.

Like verbally, which is kind of wild. Or other times that'll, it'll have like a message window that's secure where you can message the. In the ransomware that actually pops up and you can't access anything else on the computer. ASL was what you wear. And but yeah and I actually have, there's some quotes here that I have that are going to be included in the show notes which is from an article called an anatomy of crypto enabled cyber crimes.

And basically there's a little snippet here of a conversation between a company and. Some some hackers that have ransomware their systems. And we're going to get into how that happens here in a minute. But basically You know, there's a victim saying, we, we thought we have almost six days left.

Our leadership is currently reviewing the situation and determining our best resolution. [00:31:00] The hacker says, until we waiting for your reply on situation, we stopped DDoS attack to your domain. You can switch on your website as well, your blog all kinds of, it's very, so sometimes the hackers will use bad grammar on purpose to make it harder to identify the person where they're from or that sort of thing.

Yeah. 

Brianne: That's almost what I got my master's in. Yeah, heck yeah. was that stuff. You can very much tell things like regional stuff and education level and stuff down to, you know, you can kind of assume gender, weirdly. By some language that's used yeah, I was, I was, if the, if the educational system in academia wasn't so ableist, I would probably have a degree in forensic linguistics right now, but it is smart to deliberately just obfuscate where you're from by doing 

Violet: that.

Yeah, yeah, it's basically they're, they're, they're typing as though they are not like English as a first [00:32:00] language, which is sometimes the case, but sometimes not like the, the attacker saying. You know, you will get, you know, full decrypt of your systems and files, full file tree, and we'll delete the files which we have taken from you, followed up by, we have reputation and word, we worry about our reputation as well, like just like kind of a switching back and forth between something that is It's grammatically correct and something that isn't and it would be 

Brianne: so interesting to collect those and to see, it's, it's the linguistics degree and the autism see if you could find a pattern and figure out if you can say, I think this is all done by the same person based on the way they attempt to obfuscate.

You know what I mean? That would be really cool. Like, I feel like you could figure out maybe different, very prolific hackers based on the way they try to obfuscate how they talk, because they're going to have a pattern to it. 

Violet: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, of course, and then what if they get into AI generated speech, you know?

True, [00:33:00] true. 

Brianne: That, that'll throw a wrench in that one, too. 

Violet: But, a bigger wrench, even, is, here's the thing, right? You're a big corporation. You've been hacked. You're negotiating with the hackers to get your data back. You negotiate successfully. You pay 16 million dollars or whatever. You get all your files back.

Everything's gone. Do you tell anyone? You should have to. You should have to. 

Brianne: If it's got other people's information, you should have to. Ah. But if you're a capitalist pig, if you're a capitalist pig, you won't. 

Violet: But if it doesn't have people's private information, just your business's private information?

Should you tell people? And if so, who do you tell and why? Right? So, most of these big companies that get hacked do not tell anyone. There is a company and the majority of companies that get ransomware attacked don't actually report anything. They don't even call the cops because it's like, well, if we, if we tell the cops.

Right, and we don't handle this independently, then people will think our [00:34:00] company has poor security in general, right? Because then that's public, and that damages their business's reputation and all this stuff. It's like, well, if you have bad security, you have bad security. 

Brianne: And also, most big companies are so fucking greedy, they might even factor in, we have to put aside this much for, you know.

Violet: Yeah and it's shocking how much some of these hacks can, can get for some of these hacking organizations. For example, there's a company called Mt. Gox, G O X, 

Brianne: oh, I was about to say.

Violet: It's, listen, it's a Japanese, company. 

Brianne: Like, yeah, sure, hell yeah, but it's a weird, weird thing to name your company. Yeah, Mounts and Gawks, what company do you work 

Violet: at? Well, Mount Girlcocks, I mean Gawks the Japanese crypto exchange was the victim of multiple crypto attacks one in 2014, which led to a loss of almost 850, 000 bitcoins.[00:35:00] 

Which, at the time this article that I'm referencing was written, was 17 billion dollars. Ooh. Yeah. That's a lot of money. And essentially the business, like, doesn't surv generally, a lot of times after attacks like these, the business, if it can survive, it had so much money to begin with. It, it manages to make it anyway.

You know, like major credit card companies and things like that, when they get hacked, like they often will have to pay money or stuff like that to hide, to like get their information back, but they can survive. Smaller companies like Mt. Gox, they went under shortly after this essentially. And the, the only reason they paid that money, even though they didn't have it, was thinking they could face legal repercussions for releasing.

The data of the crypto exchange because people's other other crypto information was in there. So it's a whole thing. But all of those basically the way the way they pay is through anonymous. Blockchain addresses, which [00:36:00] is a whole crypto thing. But basically, at that point, you could just send money anonymously to a whole bunch of different Bitcoin addresses, which send it to other ones, which send it to other ones, and eventually it slowly gets funneled back to one person, either in Bitcoin form or other currency form.

So it, it's wild. Now, we get to the crux of all of this, and the, the, the thing that I think is the most interesting. So, the NSA. National Security Agency in the U. S. They have hackers of their own, right? To try and solve these cybercrimes, prevent them, figure out stuff like that. Class traitors.

And some Yeah, yeah, they're absolute class traitors. Absolutely. Sometimes what they need to do is take a computer that has, like you know, been ransomware and certain files are locked out and get access to it anyway through the ransomware and stuff like that. But, but all, they're they have a whole kind of like secretive branch [00:37:00] of the NSA that is not even like confirmed to exist that develops hacking tools and workarounds and backdoors into programs.

So. The NSA I forget what year I think it was like 2012 or 2013. It'll be in the show notes. The NSA discovered a vulnerability in Windows implementation of SMB protocol, server message block protocol. 

Brianne: Sucka my balls 

Violet: protocol. Sucka my balls protocol. So SMB protocol is a standard, generally secure system that creates a connection between a client and a server.

Client being a computer or another server or a host or anything like that. So it connects information from a client to a server and vice versa. So SMB connects a server and a host and talks back and forth between the two of them. Basically, this protocol in Windows is very commonly used in every every version of Windows, [00:38:00] but there's a specific version of it that's used in Windows 7, 8 and 10.

This vulnerability was discovered in, and the they developed a tool to exploit that vulnerability, the NSA did, called Eternal Blue. And this is a tool that basically 

Brianne: Which I, I have to interject the story of where the name of this episode is going to come from. So I have two partners, Violet and James.

And Violet was telling us about Eternal Blue because she was looking up a bunch of stuff about it and getting really excited. And, you know. In our neurodivergent household, it's like, yes, please tell us. And she was like, okay, I gotta go get back to work on something else. Goodbye. And she like walked out of the living room and James, who had said very little in the past few seconds, looked at me and just said eternal blue of the spotless goo.

And that was the funniest thing he could have possibly said at that moment. So. That's real good. I already knew that was going to be the episode name. Go ahead with Eternal Blue. I just, my brain, my, my, my echolosia in the back of my head has just been going Eternal Blue of the [00:39:00] Spotless Goo since I heard it, so.

Violet: Yeah. No, it's, it's really, a really good episode title. And I'm glad, I'm glad James said it. But yeah, so Eternal Blue. What is Eternal Blue? It's a tool to exploit that specific vulnerability. The NSA used Eternal Blue to surveil. Lots and lots of different people with a huge success on to quote their own like researchers, basically, it lets you just get in between all of the communications between a computer and a server that it's talking to, or all the servers that it's talking to, right?

So it lets you basically see all the data that's being transferred back and forth. between a host and its server. And it lets you do that to a lot of people at the same time. One former NSA employee said using Eternal Blue was like, quote, fishing with dynamite. Because it's extremely potent and just could hack basically anyone's computer that was using Windows.

And you could just get [00:40:00] all of the data that they sent through. I mean, it was extremely powerful. Because despite the NSA being aware of how potent the software was, the NSA did not report The fact that they knew about this vulnerability to Microsoft for years, for like two or three years at least, they were just using this tool and not reporting it to Microsoft.

Because what Microsoft could potentially do, and what they were scared Microsoft would do, was, 

Brianne: was add something to keep it from working, like protect people. 

Violet: Yeah, Microsoft would put, they were scared Microsoft would patch essentially one of their most potent tools. 

Brianne: Yeah, you know, you know, feel obligated ethically to make sure that, that that couldn't happen.

Thanks, NSA. 

Violet: Yeah which, you know, the The consequences of the decision to withhold that information became evident April 14th, so six years ago tomorrow[00:41:00] April 14th, 2017, when a group calling themselves the Shadow Brokers, cool as fuck name, by the way. Extremely cool name. Yeah. The Shadow Brokers released a massive trove of stolen NSA cyber weapons.

including Eternal Blue to the public. They just released it to everyone. They said, Hey, we stole all of these NSA developed cyber weapons and now everyone can have them. Here you go. Not 

Brianne: very shadowy though. I'll give you that. If they're just like, here, everyone have it, like. 

Violet: I mean, nobody knows who they are to this day.

I 

Brianne: mean, okay, I don't know who Chuck Tingle is, but he's not very

Violet: shadowy. I feel like he's kind of shadowy. He's not 

Brianne: shadowy, he's a ray of sunshine. 

Violet: Yeah, no, that's fair. Yeah, he's a ray of sunshine. But anyway so the Shadowbrokers released this massive trove of stolen NSA cyberweapons, including Eternal Blue. The [00:42:00] initial reporting on the release of this stuff focused really heavily on Eternal Blue specifically.

The initial reporting on the leak basically focused mainly on Eternal Blue and how potent it was. And most of the exploits that it was taking advantage of were what are called zero day exploits which are something, it's an exploit that was developed, like, essentially before the software even released.

So these are exploits that have been known for a long, long, long time that are just like deeply ingrained into every Microsoft computer on the planet at this point. This is essentially an apocalyptic scenario which is an uncontrolled cyber weapon capable of infiltrating the vast majority of computers on the planet.

It It turned out to not quite be that bad because Microsoft, a month earlier, found the vulnerability and released a patch. Oh, thank God. So everything's great, right? Thank God. Yeah, so [00:43:00] everything's great, right? No, of course it's not. 

Brianne: The data is saved. No, of course it's not. Everything's fine. Of course it's not.

Violet: So, On May 12th, 2017 less than a month after Eternal Blue was released Eternal Blue was used as a means of spreading a virus, a ransomware virus called WannaCry which is a now infamous virus that locks your computer and it affected people in up to 150 different countries and caused up to 4 billion in stolen money.

It also, Affected the UK's National Health Service. They were one of the victims of this. Yeah, the UK's National Health Service the NHS, was locked out of all of their files for a time. And even though because Eternal blue, according to the NSA, according to Microsoft, they were considered, it wasn't considered a problem anymore.

It was considered harmless because of the patch. Well, the NSA [00:44:00] and people in 150 other countries didn't update their computer. Oh my God. Yeah. So if you didn't update to that patch, you are still vulnerable. So the NSA didn't update? The NHS the NHS. The UK's National Health Service. Their computers were not 

Brianne: fully updated.

So, that's wild. I ignore my computer updates all the time. And you shouldn't. I know I shouldn't. I know I shouldn't. But it's like, no, no, no. I need to record some silly sounds for a podcast. We'll do that later. Yeah. And then later never comes. 

Violet: Yeah. It's, I, I mean, I, I've been guilty of it before too. I've pushed off updates for weeks, sometimes months at a time, and months at a time is just enough.

Right for that one month window between when the patch was released. So, or two months, actually, right? So the windows patches released a month later, all of these vulnerabilities get [00:45:00] released a month later, WannaCry happens, right? So in that two month window, if you didn't get that patch that was released two months ago, I mean, you're gonna be crying from WannaCry, basically.

And like, Really Eternal Blue and WannaCry also represent a really interesting, like, kind of set of questions about the intersection of cyber security and law. Who is responsible, right? I mean, obviously the Shadow Brokers released this tool, but they didn't personally do WannaCry. I mean, some people think they did, some of them might have participated, but the whole organization didn't just do WannaCry, like, 

Brianne: at the end.

So, like... Okay, so I gave a bunch of guns to a room full of champs. Mm hmm. 

Violet: I mean, that is, that is kind of like, personally, I feel the responsibility falls on the NSA. 

Brianne: Oh, I definitely do. I definitely do. Like, I, I think more than one person could have done [00:46:00] bad thing. I think it's mostly the NSA who should have been like, Hey, you gotta fix this.

Violet: Yeah. Like the NSA, in my opinion, should have at least talked to Microsoft and said, don't patch it yet, but have a patch ready just in case. Like, I feel like they could have worked out some sort of deal with Microsoft, but they didn't. They didn't even try to. They didn't even tell Microsoft they knew about a vulnerability.

You know, like, there has to be some kind of I 

Brianne: wouldn't have made any sort of deal with them just so they can See what I'm up to 

Violet: more. I mean, that's fair. Like what I would have done if I was Microsoft, I would have said, thank you for letting us know about this vulnerability. We will be patching it locally on our home servers and maybe holding on for a minute, like, but again, it's, it's the NSA, right?

It's, it's the U S government. They can kind of do what they want in terms of this sort of thing. So I don't know why they didn't just. Like kind of forced Microsoft's hand in a sense, but I don't know. I don't know the [00:47:00] deep complexities of it, but I feel like the, the onus of all of this falls back on the NSA, which has never, to my knowledge, taken responsibility for any of this.

So it's wild. But, the Shadow Brokers released Eternal Blue. There's also a couple other server message block vulnerabilities that were also released that are not quite as potent as Eternal Blue, but were also included. There's Eternal Romance, which I think is a funny name. Oh, that's cute.

Yeah, and Eternal Champion, which is also a cool name. Eternal Champion and Eternal Romance. But yeah, it sounds like a 

Brianne: book series I would've been into as 

Violet: a kid. Oh, honestly, yeah. No, I, I would've read Eternal Champion. That sounds cool. Or Eternal Romance and Eternal Champion. But yeah, so Eternal Blue. Despite patches being made years ago, years and years ago, eternal Blue.

is still one of the most commonly attempted exploits on Windows computers. Shockingly enough it is, it actually counts for over 92% of the [00:48:00] attacks on that specific port, the server message block port. And there's a company called Barracuda that is like a security research company. And they found that 92% of attacks on that specific port involve the server message block, eternal blue hack, like that tool specifically is still being used on vulnerable computers.

And it's it's generally used in conjunction with other attacks to kind of like penetrate network defenses once they're already into a network where the network defenses are lowered and the computers are less updated. Inside a network already, you know but it's shocking that this vulnerability is so potent that it's still being used to this day.

But yeah more recently, there's a campaign known as Eternal Silence that has been exploiting another type of vulnerability, which I won't even get into here, but a specific router vulnerability to exploit Eternal Blue and Eternal Red, which is the Linux equivalent on systems. Those are [00:49:00] 

Brianne: the new revamped Pokemon games.

Yeah, Turtle Blue and Turtle 

Violet: Red. Exactly. But basically It's, it's being revamped and redone now, and it's like, there's newer versions of it. That specific vulnerability still exists, and it's evolving into things like Eternal Silence which are newer ways of exploiting it. They're attacking ports that are often forwarded for like, online gaming.

Like, A video game might say, hey, open this port for multiplayer server hosting or whatever, right? So if you want to host a server of a game on your computer, you could do that. You just have to forward this one port and let all the traffic through. Are you 

Brianne: telling me they could hack me through my Christian Minecraft server?

Violet: They could hack you through the open port that you, you opened up a port for your Christian Minecraft server. They're 

Brianne: going to hack me through the portici for my Christian Minecraft 

Violet: server? They might. They might. Keep your computer updated. 

Brianne: No, my Minecraft portici. [00:50:00] 

Violet: I don't want you to lose your, your, your Minecraft server.

You've put so much work into that. 

Brianne: God's really blessed me with a, with a really lovely Christian Minecraft server. 

Violet: There have been hacks recently on, using EternalBlue on some hospitals, which is something that normally does not happen. And it's considered to be like, people that are renegades even within the cybercrime world are the ones doing this, and they've been denounced.

So there's an article that I'm going to have in the show notes where it talks about, there's this Russian hacker group. That they place hospitals as an off limits thing, you don't hack them. Then there was a couple members of that group, or one specific member who organized it, that hacked a hospital in the U.

S. And then afterwards, the, the, the, the overarching cybercrime organization came out and apologized on behalf of that hacker and said that they've been expelled from the organization. Yeah, which is wild. And again, [00:51:00] there's more details in my show 

Brianne: notes there. Hey, we're so, we're so sorry about Dimitri.

He's really a loose cannon, and he's been written up like twice. But this is the last straw, really. My deepest apologies, deepest apologies about Dimitri. So sorry but he's no longer with the organization. 

Violet: Yeah, also we just released all the information of these five people that we hacked. Here's their private information.

Brianne: Do with it what you will. Do with it what you will. My deepest 

Violet: apologies. Yeah, that's wild. But yeah Eternal how much damage did Eternal Blue cause? Like, up until 

Brianne: this point? A lot. At least 

Violet: seven. Yeah. It's done billions of dollars in damage. Estimates it generally, it... Between Eternal Blue and WannaCry, which uses Eternal Blue, the estimate adds up to a total of about fourteen billion dollars in damages.

One of the world's largest shipping companies, Maersk lost three hundred million dollars, FedEx lost four hundred million dollars [00:52:00] Merc Yeah, they lose all the 

Brianne: fuckin packages too, 

Violet: FedEx. Exactly, yeah, that's probably where all the it all goes, they're just lost in boxes in fuckin FedEx. Merc Pharmaceuticals lost 870 million after 15, 000 of their Windows machines succumbed to an updated version of the Eternal Blue hack in just 90 seconds.

Yeah, they lost 870 million in 90 seconds because they didn't update 15, 000 of their computers. So, it's wild. At the end of the day, a deeper loss, not as quantifiable in money, was the loss of data and access for hospitals and healthcare institutions, because of Eternal Blue, that NSA really needs to, like, take responsibility for, in my opinion.

Like, when a network crashes at a hospital... Doctors can't see information on life saving surgeries that are meant to take place, they can't record or access changes to medication they can't [00:53:00] even lose they, they can even lose GPS signals for locating ambulances which like, all kinds of stuff it is just, it's wild, and the NSA built this thing!

It's just, it's crazy, and it's, it's still out there as of June 2020, is something I cite in my show notes. A vast antivirus is still blocking around 20 million eternal blue attack attempts every month. So, yeah, modern antivirus is blocking it, if you have modern antivirus. Update your computers.

But... Like, so many attacks of Eternal Blue are still happening almost a million machines still use the original, still, the originally vulnerable server message block version 1 protocol and remain online. 

Brianne: That's, those are the, those are the people like me. Like, I'll update it later, geez. 

Violet: Honestly, more truthfully, it is the computers, it's like the back office computer at the Tom Thumb down the street [00:54:00] that has all the employees social security numbers and stuff like, and their driver's license scans and all of that stuff, right?

But it's at everyone, you know, they're just, there's not a company wide policy of keeping these things updated, or there is and it's being ignored. Anyway. But yeah there is an even deeper threat, too, of the other... The untapped exploits that were released by the Shadow Brokers coming to light because a lot of those...

Vulnerabilities didn't get the same limelight, essentially, that Eternal Blue did, and are still unpatched, still unprotected from that, those vulnerabilities. So, yeah, it's wild. There's all kinds of the other Eternal based, like, hacks coming out, and it's wild. But yeah, that's Eternal Blue of the Spotless Goo.

Brianne: Eternal Blue of the Spotless Goo. Eternal blue is fine, is good. It's fun to say. I feel at least 10% smarter about hacking, and I promise to update the computer. We do all the podcasting stuff on. 

Violet: [00:55:00] That's smart. It's a Mac, so I mean, at the end of the day, you're safer in the first place. . 

Brianne: Yeah, there 

Violet: we have it.

Eternal blue, to my knowledge, doesn't have a Mac equivalent . So 

Brianne: until you're on Mac, until Violet writes, the Spotless goo, the spotless goo hack. 

Violet: Eternal apple of the spotless kebab bowl. 

Brianne: Crabapple, yeah, 

Violet: thank 

Brianne: you. But yeah if y'all want to support us, you can join the Mix No More Patreon, and that is where you can find anything we do, basically.

We have another show Today's Lucky Winner, which is an audio drama, it's a fiction show, we've been doing it for, like, two and a half years at this point, and Violet and I voice characters on the show. I write the show. It's fun. We voice girlfriends. We voice girlfriends on that show. More guys.

But that is where she will have the show notes for the Patreon, where you can look at the links to [00:56:00] everything she has. We'll include... Notes from us and any of our guests who come on and the notes they bring for their info dump. And yeah, just fun bonus material. You get to be on a discord server and hang with us where we share really fun memes.

And we chat and we do live streams. And if you want to support the show, but you cannot do so monetarily, which I totally understand just sharing about the show on social media telling your friends about it. We don't take any sponsored ads and we also do not pay for advertising ourselves. So, Word of Mouth is entirely how we've grown our other podcasts and how we'd like to grow this one if you'd be so kind.

And if you also, if you like it, if you could also subscribe, subscription helps us get higher up in the charts and recommended. More on the different podcatchers. And if you could leave us a cute little review, if you like the show if you didn't like the show, could you just be chill, please? 

Violet: If you didn't like the show, I'm going to, hack 

Brianne: you.

No, that's, that's a joke. [00:57:00] That is for legal reasons. That is a joke. 

Violet: That's a joke. NSA. I know you're listening. It's a joke. It's a joke. Don't worry, I don't have Eternal Blue. You guys did that, so. 

Brianne: But anyway, if y'all want to support us, that's how you can do it. You can find mine and Violet's social media handles in the show details, in the episode details.

Yeah. We don't have a cute sign off yet. But, thank you for letting me listen to you take a dump, baby. 

Violet: Yeah, hell yeah. Thank you for listening to me dump on you real good. Hot and steamy this time around. The 

Brianne: spotless 

Violet: goo. Ah, spotless.

Brianne: Hi, welcome, you reached the housekeeping section of the show because I batch recorded these with Violet several months in advance while we finished up season two of Today's Lucky Winner [00:58:00] and I just want to make sure that I covered all my bases with the housekeeping and knowing how you can support the show.

So... I kind of just wanted to get the show out there, and we don't have official, like, Infodumpies social media yet, but if you check the show details, you can find mine and Violet's, you know, solo social media stuff if you want to see what nonsense we're up to on the internet. And at some point, I will probably make, like, Mixgnomer official social media stuff, but I'm tired.

And social media is, is hard for me to deal with a lot, but anyway yeah, you can find our personal social media handles in the show details also, if you want to support us, you can become a part of the Mixgnomer Patreon page, where you can get Anything we do for any podcast, any of the bonus material is on the Mixgnomer page.

So, that includes stuff for our other show, Today's Lucky Winner. That includes notes from the episodes. That includes, like, our [00:59:00] intro and outro music done by Sean Turner, who is our composer for our other show. Grackna's Groove track is actually from Today's Lucky Winner, and I just liked it because it was chill.

But yeah, basically any show that we do, that we do bonus stuff for, you can get at some level on our Patreon and at the dollar level you get access to our Discord server, where we chill, we share memes, we talk about special interests and hyperfixations, we do live streams where we play Jackbox games and we watched Austin Powers the other day because we learned that for some reason it's in the public domain, yeah. So just for just a dollar a month, you can support us and come hang out with us on our discord server. And also if you have any topics that you would like us to go into further, or that you would like us to, Oh God, my voice is doing something here. Is there any topics you would like to hear us talk about on the show?

Or you think we'd be super interested in just get at us somewhere on the internet, tell us about it. We want to know, we love to research things and yeah, we want to hear your [01:00:00] ideas. And when you support us on Patreon, you can also get a cool shoutout at certain levels. Like our friends, Randy Lovings, Rachel Rachelson, Sewing Seraph, Bee Trossler, Kelly Brennan, Smriti Singh, Helen Clifford, M.

Mosen, Lutzi, and Fleetwood Mac Sex Pants. Yeah, so, we'll see you next time I love you, goodbye, stay safe I don't have a sign off for this one. I need to work on my sign offs. I think I was toying with, I hope everything comes out okay. I don't know. I got lots of poop jokes. Let me know which one sticks.